May 5, 2007
Worthy of Condemnation
I don't enjoy much of what is posted over at Cross-Currents; I find no pleasure or satisfaction in the typical apologetics or rhetoric posted on the site, in simply pointing out the shortcomings, real or perceived, of others, and proclaiming the self-assured righteousness of Orthodoxy. So usually when I read something on the site that rubs me the wrong way, I just ignore it. But Toby Katz's latest post crossed some line in my mind, to the point where I feel it warrants a response.
Katz made the following statement:
Orthodox Jews stand with Rabbi Hildesheimer, and unequivocally condemn the ad hoc killing or stoning of Reform rabbis. It is totally inappropriate and contrary to halacha to impose the death penalty in the absence of authoritative judicial proceedings, when we are in exile and there is no proper Sanhedrin. We await the coming of Moshiach speedily and in our days.
I suppose she thinks she's being coy, but let's be clear as to what she is saying: Katz looks forward to the Messianic era when Reform rabbis can be executed with proper jurisprudence for their supposed heresy. This is deplorable and wrong for many reasons. It's wrong because it attributes guilt to a class of people, rather than affording each person individual justice. It's presumptive of the fact that a truly religious Sanhedrin would be so quick to shed blood, completely ignoring the statements of R. Akiva that a Sanhedrin that killed a single person in seventy years would be considered blood-thirsty. And finally, it's arrogant, hateful and flat-out rude. It's statements like these that convince me that there's good reason Moshiach has yet to come; as the Rambam says in Laws of Kings (12:7):
"The Prophets and Wise Men yearned for the Messianic Era - not so that they could rule over the entire world, not so that they could dominate the other nations, not so that they would be exalted by the other nations...but instead so that they are free to delve in Torah and it's wisdom, with no distractions, so that they merit the World to Come."
If anything that's been said on this topic deserves condemnation, it's Katz's statements.
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You are 100% correct. It is preposterous and galling when we read these self righteous pompous posts. Besides since when is there a "shofetet" after Devorah! ;-)
Posted by: david g. at May 6, 2007 7:24 PMShe doesn't hold by the gemaras that talk about the sanhedrin trying to minimize the use of the death penalty as much as possible.
Posted by: Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) at May 6, 2007 10:41 PMShe's mamish an amooretz.
Posted by: Yegbhn at May 7, 2007 8:44 AMI'm happy to leave the name-calling to others, but I did think that it was interesting to see Menken's subsequent post on finger-pointing. In contemplating the responsibility of the Orthodox towards the non-Orthodox, he's comfortable with the idea that ritual inadequacies on the part of the Orthodox somehow have a potentially adverse metaphysical effect on the behaviour of the non-Orthodox. He's less comfortable considering more practical sources of negative influence - the possibility that unpleasantness on the part of (some) Orthodox folks ("If only we could stone the rabbi that helped you deal with your mother's death, we would be so happy!") makes them a less attractive role model is not even considered.
That may be a defensible hashkafic stance, I suppose. But the omission seems odd, at least to me.
- Moishe Potemkin
Posted by: Moishe Potemkin at May 7, 2007 1:34 PMI agree with your assessment of Cross Currents, Greg. While I respect some of the contributors, such as the rav of our shul, I feel that the main ringleaders of the site have a tendency to be quite sanctimonious. If I wasn't frum, it would probbaly alienate me further.
Posted by: Jewboy at May 7, 2007 2:58 PMHonestly, I think she's nuts, and should have tossed her off the site a long time ago. The tone of the site was better in the past, but it's really gone downhill lately.
However, I do think that relying solely on R' Akiva's statement as proof that we should never give out the death penalty to even people who, halachically, deserve it is a little dishonest. I've been hammering through mishnayos these days, and it's astonishing what sort of stuff merited the ultimate sanction. I hate to say it, but the Torah and Oral Law are pretty clear that, given some very precise (but not unattainable!) circumstances, something like breaking Shabbos can result in your execution, at least al pi halacha.
I'm not saying I would enjoy something like that happening, or that I think it even would happen. After all, when the Messiah comes (the only time we'll get a properly reconstituted Sanhedrin, IMHO), everyone will understand why it's important to keep all the laws (eg, non-observant people will become observant, thus negating the problem). But I do fundamentally disagree with my interpretation of your premise - I do think that some non-observant people, if there were the appropriate judiciary in place, would merit the death penalty. Harsh and horrible, I agree, but I've found a lot of things in our religion can be that way. G-d works in mysterious ways, I suppose.
Sorry for coming off like a crazy person, but that's the way I see it, given my own education and learning. I like and respect my non-observant friends and family, but I will not willfully blind myself to halacha just because it's inconvenient.
Posted by: DMZ at May 8, 2007 8:43 AM
