Presence

"Making your little point about your personal beliefs is not more important than being a part of the tzibbur"

Sounds good in theory, until you remember that most people are highly allergic to common sense.

as we said in last week's pirkei avos: al tifrosh min hatzibur. It really bothers me too when I see all the people sitting during the tefillah for the medinah and the chayalim (who by the way are protecting many of their family members living/learning in Eretz Yisroel.)

Your point is valid and well put. The good news is that it doesn't make a difference whether one sits or stands. Even assuming the prayer works (which is an assumption not all of us are prepared to make) - do these monkeys think that God gives a damn if their asses are off the chair?

Amateurs.

Shomrei says hallel at the end of davening. Just for the record, I will be leaving before hallel tomorrow not a political statement but because I have to get to work.

your just like RYBS

Funnyman-So you're saying RYBS left davening early so he could get to work?

Walter: I think you're missing my point. If God is who we think He is, He's got things pretty well figured out independant of what we do or don't say. It's a people issue, not a God issue.

It never amazes me how many people show up to shuls that for years have not said Tachanun and said Hallel (in whatever permutation), have that stunned look, and then make some sort of verbal/nonverbal comment of how opposed they are to this practice bla bla bla. I agree that people should realize the options of where to daven and make a decision accordingly (I guess that makes the assumption that such people are aware that it's Yom Haatzmaut).

In the scheme of things, especially based on the more serious theological problems recently discussed on this blog, I agree that our collective energies should probably be directed elsewhere.

Dear Greg,

Thanks for that great link, it cleared up some things for me. Hope you find your druthers soon, maybe put an ad in The Advertiser, or maybe it was one of those Shomrei switcheroos.

RYBS did whatever the tzibbur did

I have always been bothered by the people at Shomrei who for some reason feel that they have to sit down during both the prayer for the medinah and especially the chayalim. I am not sure what kind of statement they are trying to make. I have seen haredim stand for these prayers. Why be devisive?

My second issue that I don't understand is why at Shomrei they don't say the prayer for the chayalim the way it is said in Israel! The OU website for one has the correct version. That version uses the words "kochot habitachon" which includes all security personnel and not just the army. I can personally attest that anyone who is doing any type of security work on behalf of the Jewish people certainly can use our prayers.

Shvigger T,

Surely you can recall that in the days of Rabbi Bak, standing was by no means even close to universal. As I remember, and perhaps you can correct me if you remember otherwise, people felt free and comfortable to either sit or stand. It seems that it was only in the Rabbi Weinreb era that it became the "minhag" to stand.
In addition, those who have been told by their Rabbonim that they are allowed to sit for the t’fillah in spite of what the rest of the tzibur is doing, now face glares and ugly comments from the many staunch Zionists in the crowd.
My intention is not to open up a debate on the merits of Zionism per se, but rather to give some background on the issue and to ask for a measure of tolerance from those who do stand.

The issue isn't whether people do or don't stand. It's an issue of being poresh min ha-tzibbur.

Here in the Holy Land, I have heard many Rabbonim talk about the varying opinions about saying Hallel or not etc. However, one thing that is emphasized over and over again is that one should respect the fact that there are varying opinions and most importantly not to do something that will cause a division. I just heard a speech that Rav Grossman gave on the night of Yom Hazikaron in this vein. His point was that we can not forget the lesson of why sefirat haomer is no longer a time of joy. The students of Rav Akiva, 24,000 of them were killed because they did not act kindly towards each other. So, if the majority of the tzibur is standing and that does seem to be the minhag (that is what we do in eretz yisroel) than why for all reasons do something that you know or might know will cause people to think of you in a negative manner? What use is there in this? What does it hurt to stand? You don't have to say amen you don't have to do anything. I think that in our little way there are things that each and everyone of us can do to ensure that we don't have another plague like that of Rabbi Akiva. If that happens and we can elevate our own personal relationships, as Rabbi Grossman said we will merit the coming of the moshiach.

Tzioni: Thanks for the comment, you said what I was trying to say in much clearer fashion.