Presence

Yes, we are that far apart in terms of ideals. After all, the Baltimore Jewish Times has included Jews marrying/engaging non-Jews in their marriage/engagement announcement section - hardly something to be proud of. So, in that sense, we are different.

In their defense, that might be a legal issue of discrimination (people send in those announcements, they aren't "news.")

I sort-of agree with AlanLaz's diagnosis, but not the OT's prescription. If there are areas of disagreement with other folks, they should be addressed through whatever mechanism is likely to be most successful. Piously withdrawing from the broader Jewish world may feed our sense of embattled self-righteousness, but doesn't do squat to fix the problem.

(Say it with me, folks.)

Yeesh.

- Moishe Potemkin

The Jewish Times (or Alter Communications) is really just responding to the reality created by the communities - the fact that not many frum families buy the Jewish Times means Tov Pizza and Kosher Bite wont advertise there, so there's a market for something the frum families might buy because advertising could be sold...I dont think you can blame them for wanting to make more money.

Or, in other words, they don't put the "Alter" back in "Alteruistic" (wokka, wokka, wokka).

Yes, we are farther apart. It isn't just Orthodox vs. non-Orthodox Jews either. There has been a noticed polarization across the spectrum of society.

At last year's OU conference for Small Communities, Rabbi Michel Twerski spoke about this phenomenon of becoming more 'extreme' on both ends. A sort of "Best of Times/worst of times phenomenon."

An excellent example he provided of this phenomenon was education. He related that he and his brothers were able to attend public schools fifty and sixty years ago with little negative effect. Today's schools would not allow for that.

As the non-Orthodox segments of the Jewish community make more and more decisions that push them at a farther and farther distance from the Orthodox community, there is less and less common ground. In Yehupitz at least, and I am sure in Baltimore too to a lesser extent, it is no longer possible for an Observant Jew to say of a congregant of a C or R Temple: "Of course you are Jewish. I just don't think your Congregation transmits authentic Judaism." This statement would often be false because the fact is that so so (intended repetition)many of them are just not Jewish.

So as the more and more unrealistic "Am Echad" fantasy rides off into the sunset, the owners of the BJT are correct in seeing that their bottom line is a product of that.

I'm criticising "the reality created by the communities," not the Jewish Times. (I think it's a poor business decision, too, since we already have the WWW as a vehicle for self-congratulation and plaintive letters to the editor seeking sacred approval for keeping our children from playing with the shgotzim next door, who (choliloh) watch Barney. But time will tell.)

All Alters are assumed to be infallible, with the exception, of course, of the recent hatchet jobs on Mr. Ed.

One hesitates to take on the Yehupitzer, of course, but one hopes, nonetheless, that "Am Echad" is seen as an ideal, rather than a fantasy.

>since we already have the WWW as a vehicle for self-congratulation and plaintive letters to the editor seeking sacred approval for keeping our children from playing with the shgotzim next door, who (choliloh) watch Barney.

That might just be the best quote of all time. Seriously. It's up there with William Wallace's "FREEDOM!" and Walter's "Shomer Shabbos". Congratulations, Moishe.

Aw, shucks.

I second Bill. A great line. And hopefully a foreshadowing of a full-length constructive criticism piece on the WWW.

>

Do you mean the Alter of Slobodka? Kelm? I don't understand this phrase.

Point well taken on the Am Echad ideal. I of course was not referring to the hope that Jews "all get along". I was referring to the dream many in Jewish community federation life have, namely that Jews who value the ideals of Talmudic Judaism could be respect (and I mean real respect, not toleration-because-we-live-in- a-free-country respect) organizations of Jews that espouse and promote values that are at odds with Talmudic Judaism.

I don't know if this BOT is a good idea. I don't live in Baltimore. But I am not surprised that the continents have drifted to the point that Orthodox and non-Orthodox Jews no longer share interest in the same events and community goings-on, or like the same ads for diamond necklaces. My hope for an Am Echad would be for the continents to come close together on some more basics. That, alas, will take a while.

I'm gonna quibble a little more.

There is no shortage of "organizations of Jews that espouse and promote values that are at odds with Talmudic Judaism." But they don't exclusively espouse and promote these values, they also espouse and promote values that we like.

I'm in the minority, of course, but I view as both inaccurate and unhelpful the argument that equates co-operation with absolute endorsement.

I still think real respect is appropriate, and due. (And, as always, Berkovits, Berkovits, Berkovits.)

Moishe, hold on a minute. I was not making the Agudist argument that we should never cooperate with non-Orthodox organizations. I am not interested in talkingaa about that now. And my feelings on that matter are not strictly agudist anyway. But that's for another time.

I was making the simpler argument that "Am Echad" requires agreement on more points than there are agreements on right now. All groups want little children to be happy and well fed. All segments of the Baltimore Jewish community eschew cannibalism. But if you dream of an Am Echad that can get the same level of satisfaction in a weekly paper from all segments of the Jewish community, then don't hold your breath.

(Sometimes, I do think about the real benefits that those other official segments of the Jewish world have given us. I think of the fact that they remind us of ideals that we had been forgetting in our drive to get the minutae right. But that doesn't affect my arguments.)

I'm not holding my breath - I'm distinguishing between what I think will happen, with what I think should. But our (loosely defined) willingness to jettison upwards of 80% of American Jewry because of our inability to either convince them of our theological correctness, or to impress them with our moral rectitude has proven to be ineffective, and is not too nice, besides.

I was trying to find someway to say (in my post) that the nice thing about a single publication is that it lets people in Owings Mills know how someone like R. Neuberger has changed their lives (even though they may not know it) and people in Park Heights know how some other person of non-Orthodox affiliation (R. Batsheva Meiri, perhaps?) has changed their lives...but I couldn't think of any practical examples of the latter...so perhaps they aren't doing a good job of this in first place, or perhaps it's just not true.

I don't think we should "jettison" them. Sadly, in Yehupitz I see them doing a fine job jettisoning themselves without any help from me.

Redn tzum zach, it is not an act of jettisonization to acknowledge that the differences are significant and might affect the kinds of newspapers we read.

But I think that Greg is correct that this will hurt the journalism aspect of both communities' papers.

I'm not attacking you personally, I'm commenting on a more general sad state of affairs.

I would, though, urge you to re-read this line: "I see them doing a fine job jettisoning themselves without any help from me." You omitted a comma after the word "themselves" which subtly changes the meaning of the sentence. See what I mean?

I'm abstaining from all commentary regarding Rabbi Meiri, although I suspect that her sacerdotal ministrations might be more welcome in Greenspring than in Park Heights.

While its true that the JT announcements of Jews and non-Jews marrying/engaging, etc. and its true that it advertises non-kosher restraunts, there was still a limit to what could be inside. What I mean is that in Detroit, the Jewish News, (their version of the JT) is so secular that it *frequently* had announcements for gay marriages. So if we separate the Orthodox Jews from the JT, we're risking further alienation and secularization.