Presence

I, and many others like me (Yeshiva educated, moderately pro-Israel, aware of the current social climate, etc.), feel that co-education is an insurmountable obstacle. I would never send a child of mine to a co-educated school if an alternative - even if inferior - was available. If Rambam decides to segregate (which it already does after a certain age...which of course begs the question why they wait, but never mind) they wouldn't be able to process the applications fast enough.

(Almost) everyone around here wants a superior Hebrew and English curriculum - you'd have to be a moron not to. (Almost) everyone around here wants their kids to feel positively about Israel. (Almost) everyone around here wants their kids to appreciate making a nice living. But above all,(almost) everyone around here wants kids to value Torah learning and leading a Halachik lifestyle.

How can you profess to lead such a lifestyle when the classes are mixed, in 2006?!

Rachi:

There is no such thing as "boys and girls interacting in a healthy way", unless you're referring to contraception. I went to a segregated high school, and I still managed to do plenty of damage to myself and others because of "healthy interaction".

There is no need at all for boys and girls to interact. Period.
Is it fun? Yes.
Is it cool? Yes.
Do I wish I interacted better, so chicks would dig me? Of course.
Is it healthy (spiritually)? No way in hell.

Along those lines, barring financial considerations, why would you want them in the same building, once you've agreed to segregate the classes? That sounds completely counterintuitive. (I'm on a diet, so I won't have the ice cream, I'll just sit in the store.)

I know we're coming from opposite sides of the spectrum, but I'd like to hear how you view mingling of the sexes as "healthy".

"Is it healthy (spiritually)? No way in hell."

Not sure I agree with that one. Women often have very different insights into spirituality than men (and vica versa), and having a good female friend can sometimes be very enlightening.

I'm not a huge fan of coeducation, but it's hardly a spiritual deathblow, and it's extremely unfair to say so to those kids who are struggling through places like Beth Tfiloh while trying to remain observant. The reason Orthodox Jews seem to have no self-control anymore is because they're treated as such.

-DMZ

Obviously, girls can be intellectually stimulating to guys - they can, and often are. But any teenage guy who's ONLY hanging out with a girl for intellectual stimulation is either blind or a homosexual (or both). Usually, he's trying to make a move.

This is not rocket science. The dangers of coeducation so far outweigh the benefits that it's really not worth having a discussion. Are you really suggesting that we throw out countless halachos, ma'amerei chazal, and good old common sense because our kids MIGHT be intellectually stimulated?

I will add that I wholeheartedly disagree with you: I think that in an instance such as this one (with Rambam) it has the potential to be a great spiritual deathblow. It's one thing if you have a “borderline” Orthodox school (e.g. BT) that is co-ed. Students grow up in an environment that is not pretending to be the be-all and end-all of Judaism, so they can mature spiritually without being confused. But, if a school professes to lead a halachik lifestyle, and teaches its students that indeed they are acting in a halachically acceptable fashion, how is a student supposed to mature out of that?

If I had my druthers, I'd segregate the public schools too! NOTHING good comes from the interaction of the sexes at that age.

Parenthetically, it's called SELF control for a reason. Blaming it on society is a cop-out.

"This is not rocket science. The dangers of coeducation so far outweigh the benefits that it's really not worth having a discussion. Are you really suggesting that we throw out countless halachos, ma'amerei chazal, and good old common sense because our kids MIGHT be intellectually stimulated? "

Why not? All those myriad "halachos" are apparently based on the idea that they MIGHT sin. Hell, most of those "halachos" are really just hashkafos when you get down to it - the earliest reference to "shomer negiah" is Rambam, which should give you some insight onto how much the authors of the Talmud care about the issue.

I mean, if you care so much about following every little word of the Gedolim, get off the Internet. It's quite assur, and it's been stated over and over as such. You have an educated disagreement with them on that issue? That makes two of us with educated disagreements. I have the utmost respect for them, and I learn from them. I have never been able to take that next step into blindly following their every word (un)fortunately.

Also, could you be a little more explicit about the "dangers" of co-education? What are we supposed to be looking out for here that can't happen when someone is at a non-coed school?

Personally, I know of an (unmarried) girl at Beis Yaakov who got knocked up when she was about 14. I know of still others who slept around, and got themselves such a name their parents had to send them out of town from the embarassment. I know guys who were similarly bad (although it was more drugs than girls on that end). Non-coed schools are, at best, a low hurdle to jump if you want to.

I take your whole rant as being a little extreme, if only because:
1. I had many female friends in high school (and didn't touch any of them).
2. I did rather exceedingly well at Talmud (look for my name on the "Hebrew Studies Valedictorian" plaque - year 2000).

Of course, a few of those same female friends confessed to my wife "I thought he was gay!", so what the heck do I know? (I really wish I were joking.) I had other friends who were the same way, too. It's only anecdote, but you've hardly got statistics backing you.

You want to know what a spiritual deathblow is? Having disrespectful rebbeim make you feel stupid. That'll kill your neshoma far faster than any girl could. That didn't happen to me, but I always felt sad when I saw it happen to my friends.

I'll end with saying that coeducation itself is not the problem. It is people with no self control. And, yes, I darn well believe that many Jews have lost their self control because they were told to never be in situations that forced them to exercise it. You can call it a cop-out all you want, but it's only your opinion - please grant me my own.

-DMZ

First of all: you are absolutely entitled to your opinion.

Next:
>the earliest reference to "shomer negiah" is Rambam, which should give you some insight onto how much the authors of the Talmud care about the issue.

The Talmudical rabbis wouldn't even let you hear a woman SPEAK (according to some- others learn it as a prohibition on women singing), let alone touch one. The Talmud is rife with explicit prohibitions concerning looking at women too. Do not attempt to flex your halachik muscle in this argument: you are destined for failure.

On we go:

>the earliest reference to "shomer negiah" is Rambam

Gee, aren't we talking about a school that patterns itself after the Rambam? Are they only going to accept his philosophy when it comes to learning Plato, but not his halacha??? Do you know what the Rambam says (quoting gemaros, incidentally) about men and women intermingling?

>I mean, if you care so much about following every little word of the Gedolim, get off the Internet. It's quite assur, and it's been stated over and over as such.

No it hasn't. If you want to send a child to school in Lakewood, you can't have the internet in your house. The internet is not assur.

Even if it was, though, there are scores of poskim that would allow it. We can follow them. I challenge you to find ONE Orthodox, knowledgeable, competent posek that allows co-education; notwithstanding financial or other extreme constraints (in other words, “just because we want to”). Go for it. I dare you. And if you do, I wanna faher the guy.

>Also, could you be a little more explicit about the "dangers" of co-education? What are we supposed to be looking out for here that can't happen when someone is at a non-coed school?

Nothing. It's a valid point. But we should distance ourselves from it to the extent that we can. The same way I don’t give my 4 year-old cigarettes, even though he might eventually take up smoking.

Honestly, DMZ, you surprise me. You seem like an intelligent guy. I can’t believe you don’t see the flaw in your arguments.

>I did rather exceedingly well at Talmud

So did Jesus. That's not the point. It doesn't make a difference how well you do at Hebrew studies.

>You want to know what a spiritual deathblow is? Having disrespectful rebbeim make you feel stupid. That'll kill your neshoma far faster than any girl could.

Again, a valid point. But that's not the issue we're dealing with here.

Finally, you have not yet articulated what the BENEFITS of co-education are. Please do so.

To preface: the Talmud also said some fascinating stuff about not even letting women search for chametz. Let us come to the reality that the Talmudic view on women is no longer held by most people today, since we treat our women like royalty.

The point about Rambam was not an attempt to argue that he's the posek we should follow exclusively (wife beatings anyone?), only that some issues that we make a huge deal out of today weren't even covered in the Talmud. I have obviously failed at making this point. I'll discard that argument for now.

"No it hasn't. If you want to send a child to school in Lakewood, you can't have the internet in your house. The internet is not assur."

I recall previous decrees before that without such limited scope. Perhaps they weren't as well distributed, but they definitely exist.

"I challenge you to find ONE Orthodox, knowledgeable, competent posek that allows co-education"

Solovetchik apparently did (with Maimonides school). Is that good enough for you?

"So did Jesus. That's not the point. It doesn't make a difference how well you do at Hebrew studies."

It most certainly does. You simply cannot be spiritual without being knowledgable. Look at the deplorable state of non-affiliated American Jewry, for instance.

"Finally, you have not yet articulated what the BENEFITS of co-education are. Please do so."

I don't need to. I'm not arguing co-education is better, only that it's not the deadly poison you're making it out to be. The reason Rambam (the school) was originally not separate was because of financial reasons, or so the story goes.

My main disagreement was with your stance that boys talking to girls is like cyanide for them both, which I still think is untrue. However, it is fairly obvious I'm not going to win you over on this, so I'll stop trying.

-DMZ

I wouldn't use the term "cyanide", which implies certain, catastrophic results. I don't think that's true because I know many young men and women that did fine in a co-ed situation. (note that above I said it has the POTENTIAL to be a great spiritual deathblow).

My argument is that it's not a l'chatchila, to the extent that if I had a choice between a sub-par segregated yeshiva and an excellent co-ed one, I would still choose to send my children to the sub-par school. That's all I'm saying. I don't think that people who send their kids to co-ed yeshivos are evil; I think that they're being foolish and naive. Putting boys and girls together is encouraging licentious thoughts and behavior, and I'd rather have my children avoid that - to the extent possible, even at the expense of positive feelings towards Israel, a better education, or possibly turning into yeshivish goons.

Mr. Bill stateth: Putting boys and girls together is encouraging licentious thoughts and behavior, and I'd rather have my children avoid that - to the extent possible, even at the expense of positive feelings towards Israel, a better education, or possibly turning into yeshivish goons.

M Potemkin respondeth that he ith amuthed that Mr. Bill sees no spiritual danger inherent in having his kids exposed to goofy ideas about reincarnation and hashgacha pratis (to pick on just two that my single-sex-schoolkid was relating to me late last week during a hearty round of retching).

Sex is lots of fun to talk about, even for the scolds, but it ain't everything. Beams between the eyes, and so on, old chap.

- Moishe Potemkin

I don't understand the "beams between the eyes" reference. Could that be elaborated upon?

Basically the point of contention seems to be whether or not coed is enough of a concern to tip the scales, when weighed along with the other factors. While this is an objective criteria, I think this is more of a question that depends on the students indivdual needs and/or proclivities.

Interesting posts but you all are missing the big point. While I agree that educating boys and girls is a challenge for any responsible Yeshiva Day School, it is the parents even more than the school who make it work or not work. In any Yeshiva Day School model (boys and girls in same classes, in same building but not in the same classes, in different buildings within the same school, or completely seperate education as if a boy even talks to a girl they project they are having sex, etc...), if the kids are taught behaviors by their rebbe's or female teachers but parents do not share the same views or give the kids mixed signals, you will likely have a failed child.

No, I disagree with most of these posts that seem to signal it all rests with the school (Rambam or any other). Parents must conform to whatever school they send their kids to especially a religious school and kids themselves to point fingers. You will see later but then it can be too late.

A successful child is not about boys and girls, it is about parents and schools and how they interact / partner to the same moral values of halacha or do not.

Let's not forget when we look at the big huge Orthodox Teens At Risk problem is this community, the kids are not coming from the co-ed world day schools who do much more than simply educate boys and girls in some model, they are coming from the fully seperated what one of the posters refers to "real following of halacha" Yeshiva Day Schools.

So you can debate this topic all day and all night and agree to disagree but look more at yourselves at parents as this debate is not a new one and parents who years ago spouting the same topics (albeit not on blogs or computers as their medium) whose kids were "saved" by going to "halachickly permissible but lesser education schools" scratch their heads today when they wonder what went wrong, blame everyone but themselves, and wish they had the "sachel" back then they do today to have "risked" their child in a better educational environment.