Presence

I'm not sure which economic principle supports your assumption that 1 and 3 are possible.

These are goals, not requirements. The idea is to keep them in mind and maximize their actualization to the greatest extent possible.

I understand, but practically, how do you propose to balance the conflicts? I'm not trashing the idea, but there should be some sort of process to determine, for example, at what level of teacher quality is the marginal burden on parents no longer worth the incremental expense.

maybe if teachers were paid a decent wage, the field would attract top notch teachers, who then would not make the parents feel that they are being burdened with the extra expense.

just to clarify one point on a comment on Greg's last post about tuition. I hadn't read it until today, but was prevented from commenting on that post someone mentioned that the only reason NYC had school bussing was because of the Catholics, in fact, my father alav hashalom was very active in working on getting school bussing for NYC in 1953, when I started day school...I don't know if he worked with the Catholic schools or not, but that was his legacy (which I wasn't eligible for, after the school I went to moved more than 5 miles from my house.)

"maybe if teachers were paid a decent wage, the field would attract top notch teachers, who then would not make the parents feel that they are being burdened with the extra expense."

Are you insinuating that we don't already have top-notch teachers? Let's table that.

The expense would be burdensome even if the product was improved.

Greg's Shvigger--Of course there were Jews involved in fighting for free busiing for the Yeshiva's. But, without the Catholics it is unlikely that it would have ever come to fruition. My husband has read the court case documents, I believe, and we owe a hakaras hatov to the Catholic leadership (as well as the Jewish leadership that lead the fight also).

Other states should fight for bussing too!

P.S. Certainly no disrespect was met for the Jews who fought for leadership. My major point was that the Jewish community needs to be PRAGMATIC and form coalitions where needed.

I think all of Greg's goals are important and not impossible, just very difficult.

1) Reasonable tuition for parents. The system should not require the haves to pay the way for the have-nots.

I would be surprised if anyone would argue against this. That being said without a better system it is a responsibility on those that can afford to do so to assist those that can not afford the full freight. I do pay more then my pro rata share being that I pay full tuition so do not think I am saying this as someone who is a benficiary. Most of us give money to schools abroad be it Israel or Russia or otherwise why not educate people of the importance of having jewish education in our local area.

2) Adequate and respectable compensation for educators.

Hard to argue with this although reasonable people will likely disagree what is deemed reasonable.

3) Quality education, both religious and secular, in a single environment.

Everyone should be in favor of this.

4) Communication between schools and families, accountability from school administrations to parent boards and families.
I initiaaly was going to say this is sorely lacking, but I do have trust in the cusrrent Boards of the schools for the most part.

5) Support from the broader community, not just the families who have enrolled children in the school.

This is about education as much as anything else. People need to feel that a school is a community need not just a need of the parents that utilize it.

"Are you insinuating that we don't already have top-notch teachers? Let's table that."

Are you insinuating that we do? Prove it. Bring out the statistics.

Do we have lots of students graduating and going to top-notch universities _and_ yeshivas? Sad answer is, at least at TA, the answer is no. They seem to be incapable of carrying out both, and barely capable of doing either.

Willingness to pay tuition is directly linked to _the product you get_. The quality of the teachers is very much the issue here. If I was getting a stunning education for my $8k, it would not nearly be as big a deal.

-DMZ

DMZ-
I think that we need to decide who/what we are talking about. Are we discussing the problems of a particular institution? or Jewish day schools in general? B/c I don’t think it is fair to argue on the comment about 'top notch teachers' by bringing one school as the example, even if you specify that you are referring to that one school only.

I understand that this blog is more centered around the Baltimore community, and from what I can see, many of the posters here send their kids to TA. Being in NY, I’m not really privy to those issues specific to that institution. But i think that when talking about the issue of school tuition and/or quality of education/educators, we need to look beyond one particular school.

Just my two cents.

DMZ -

That was a goofy inside joke, not a declaration of faith in the universal excellence of our educators.

- Moishe P.

the fact is, I don't think we are attracting the best teachers in the field any more. most of the girls are getting degrees in computers, graphic design, the therapies...where they can make more money...

Slightly off topic but quite relevant is an initiative the OU is trying to get in Maryland as well as other states. A bill recently passed in PA allows businesses state tax credits (which for those that have some familiarity with taxes is much more valuable then deductions) for donations made to private or public schools. The credit is between 75% and 90% of the amount given and is capped at $44,000,000 total allowed statewide. They are trying to get a similar bill introduced in MD. This is a joint effort between the jewish institutions and catholic schools. It would likely have a tremendous impact on the fund raising ability of schools as it essentially wouldn't cost a business anything to make a donation. Other states have introduced other forms of deductions or credits to individuals or businesses for tuitions, which veers away from vouchers slightly.

There is alot of interesting forces moving which people may not be aware of to try to lessen the impact of tuition or just lower the costs. Instead of complaining more people should try to get involved. People love to sit on the sidelines and critique. One friend of mine frustrated with the skyrocketing tuition is helping with a concert (Israeli Symphony is being brought in) to set up an endowment fund for a local school. Jeff Zuckerman is trying to get a case to challenge the deductibility of th etuition for religious education in this area (4th Circuit). I have met withthe OU and they have a special group set up to deal withthis specific issue. Yes, it is a difficult situation but unless anyone tries to change the current set up it will only get worse.

kol hakavod to all those trying to alleviate the tuition problem.

"Being in NY, I’m not really privy to those issues specific to that institution. But i think that when talking about the issue of school tuition and/or quality of education/educators, we need to look beyond one particular school."

Let me then say, TA was an example, because I know most people here are familiar with it. All of the other Orthodox schools in Baltimore (and Silver Spring, honestly) have similar issues. Bizarrely, the only one that seems to actually _not_ be that bad is Beth Tfiloh - yet, I don't think that's a serious option for most Orthodox parents in the community. Beis Yaakov seems to have also improved, but it has some serious cultural problems associated with it.

-DMZ

I agree with DMZ. The schools pretty much all have similiar academic issues and behavioral issues.

Vouchers and government aid, tax breaks etc, will never solve the problem, as it will only be partial and will force tuition up - just like university tuitions (that being said, over the years YU has been extremely kind to myself and other family members who attended and would not have been able to attend with this help, and of course we are grateful for the Aliya incentive fund that has helped pay back a good chunk of the outstanding YU loans) YU was nearly bankrupt at the end of the 1970's. As the endowment went up, tuition went up well beyond the inflation rate. Again, with the caveat that the financial aid is generous for those in need. Basically, YU takes what they can from the wealthy while making sure all students eligible to attend can do so. They are well aware of the secular alternatives (CUNY and SUNY) but can get away with it b/c the community doesn't get all worked up if a student at age 20 goes to Queens College instead of YU in order to save $$$ - when most of the community is pushing Columbia or Harvard. But when it comes to HS or elementary school everyone shries, Gevald!! how can nice Jewish boys and girls go to public school!! Unless there is a system whereby what YU does on the college level can be recreated acroos the board from k-12 then nothing will work. As most of the community will not accept the "secular" alternative for some - an alternative that is accepted on the college level - then the only solution is Aliyah. Period.

The only solution is a community tax based one that won't work unless it is total - i.e like the Mishpat Ivri system in place until the emancipation, whereby the Vaad collected community taxes based upon the Poritz's demands as well as the communal educational needs and religious needs. In Israel we mostly replicate this system as tax shekels fund nearly 95% of a religious schools operating budget and it is supervised by the government. That's not to take for granted that the government won't turn on the religious system, but for the foreseeable future the political balance indicates that they won't be "forcing" everyone into one stream any day soon.It is not complete and schools still have ti shnorr some donations and hit up parents for $100 a month for extra torani hours, but on the whole it works - it's very hard for the wealthy to hide ALL their income from taxes and some of this comes back into the school system from the tax pool. It is also hard for family run schools to funnel huge chunks of their budget into their pockets as they are supervised by the government. Sure their are expceptions but ion the whole the system works.

And, BTW under the tax code that supports the public school systems in the USA as well as nearly all schooling in Israel (as well as the halachic norms for communal support for chinuch) the "haves" fund the "have nots". Why is Yeshiva education in the US different? By definition if you are paying for private school tution you are a "have" funding another "have not" going to public schools on your tax dollars? Why is the Yeshiva system meant to be different? So yes - I'll have to argue with Number 1 - it goes against every economic model funding manadatory or almost manadatory schooling and goes against the Halacha and Torah

"So yes - I'll have to argue with Number 1 - it goes against every economic model funding manadatory or almost manadatory schooling and goes against the Halacha and Torah"

I think you misinterpret Greg, or at least how I read it. He wants _tuition costs_ to be in line with what it actually costs to teach a student. From there on out, certainly, the community has some resposnibility to help those who can't afford it.

The issue with building the premium straight into tuition is that it puts more hurt on the people who are _being responsible_ and paying their share than is necessary. A mandatory contribution to a scholarship fund, for instance, would at least be tax-deductible for them. Of course, it would also be taxable income for the recipients, but the issue is, why are we tossing _all_ of the load onto already full-tuition paying parents?

"So yes - I'll have to argue with Number 1 - it [..] goes against the Halacha and Torah"

This is an extremely arrogant statement. Care to back it up? I never saw a single Talmudic or Tannaic reference _anywhere_ in your little rant. Remember, you are going to prove that "Reasonable tuition for parents. The system should not require the haves to pay the way for the have-nots." is anti-Torah and anti-Halacha.

As for "well, they do it in Israel like that", you are not really understanding the issue. I'm paying for public school (tax) _plus_ private school (tuition) here in the USA. The costs are _much_ greater.

And, for the record, I don't believe in public schools, period, so your point about "this is how it works" doesn't really fly with me.

I think the only worthwhile point you make is that the Orthodox "after school Hebrew school" system in the USA is basically non-existent, and what does exist is a poor excuse for a proper day school. Competition would definitely be helpful, and would at least show the _true_ cost of just a Jewish education.

-DMZ

Read any of Rabbi aaron Levine's books for how education is treated halachically. It is a communal responsibility and teachers are only allowed to be paid like doctors are - i.e. their opportunity course. If you insist on direct sources I will dig them up for you. Holchot Tzedaka in the SA is a good place to start.

Tax deductibility helps the wealthy more than the poor, so it will just allow the upper and upper middle class to take more vacations rarther than solving the problems. Your position is based on the fact that people are cheating - thus the only solution is one that comes from a direct tax - which can only be done under an autonomous communal structure or in a Jewish State.

"Your position is based on the fact that people are cheating"

Cheating? Paying for someone else's education IS CHARITY. I don't know how you can claim otherwise. It is certainly a communal obligation, but it _is charity_. You need to get off this sense of entitlement to other people's money - the only entitlement you have is to ma'aser, and dayschool tuition usually blows right past that.

All I'm asking is that we treat charity _like charity_. Instead, we get this system where the people who are doing the financially responsible thing get totally screwed, and those who are not get even more benefits.

And, yes, give some direct sources. Quote them, too.

-DMZ

DMZ summarizes my feelings about point #1 very well - the point is that, while the community may end up instituting/requesting some sort of broad obligation towards the schooling of less wealthy families, structuring the tuition system like this is not right, for the reasons DMZ stated.

"Tax deductibility helps the wealthy more than the poor, so it will just allow the upper and upper middle class to take more vacations rarther than solving the problems."

Ovysuvf--You obviously know very little about budgeting and taxes. The ability to itemize is a huge benefit to the middle class.

I'm with DMZ. The current system in the frum world is that those who work hard get little benefit for all their hard work.

"Tax deductibility helps the wealthy more than the poor, so it will just allow the upper and upper middle class to take more vacations rarther than solving the problems."

Isn't that who we feel are shouldering more then their equitable share. Those paying full tuition should realize the benefit of a tuition reduction or deduction.