Presence

You said that haskomah represents "a simple testimony by a noted Torah personality of the author's moral credentials. " Even if the orthodox community views haskohmah as that and not representing an agreement with the content of the book, I would think that based on the content it would call into question the "author's moral credentials.". No?

Rabbi Grama's entitlement to his opinions does not excuse his endorsers from categorically condemning them when they are odious.

Kermit - I thought that was what I said. As usual, your familiarity with Frog dialect enables you to say things in a infinetley greater succiction than I will ever hope to be able to achieve, unaccustomed as I am to the way Frogs think and speak. Ribbit.

Peninah - perhaps.

By the way, this reminds me of a story I once heard R. Schachter relate on the topic Lashon Hara when you are protecting an innocent party. It went a little something like this:

"A student of mine asked for a written recommendation to Columbia Business School. I told him he should get from one of his business professors, because I knew he was not a great student and would have to write that on a recommendation. He insisted that I write the recommendation. So I did. I wrote, "This young man is not a great student, but his father is very wealthy, and if you let him in to your school, his family will likely give you generous donations for years to come.' And he got in!"

Understanded, but the disproportionate focus on the relatively minor issue in 'truth in advertising' pales behind the far greater issue of this twaddle being purveyed as Judaism.

So basically, you think the main issue is that this guy is a nut job, not the fact that R. Kotler hands out haskomah's like a Hare Krishna at LaGuardia over Thanksgiving weekend. I just think that if the system were different, no one would give as much credit to said nutjobs when they do (and they will) publish their ravings.

Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken.

The issue is precisely the opposite. This fellow may or may not be a nut job, but the message that he has published is entirely consistent with the transmitted (I would love to say transmuted) beliefs of a good deal of the Orthodox world, wherein the intensified fundamentalism within their ranks is mistakenly viewed as a resurgence, and as something totally distinct from the intensified fundamentalism within the ranks of other religious groups.

It may not make you a chicken, but in a fraternity of brothers, NOT doing said act will undoubtedly endow you with said title for life, nevertheless.

Either way, kudos on the line. A fine line indeed.

Mike, just to clarify:

What I meant by, "sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken" is that just because Grama went to Lakewood, it doesnt give him the credibility that he speaks for the entire Yeshiva or Orthodox world. What does give him this credibility is the fact that R. Kotler signs off on his work.

The line isnt mine, by the way; it comes from a book/movie. I'd be impressed if you knew which one.

And to Kermit/Joey, I think I finally understand what you are saying, and that is that Grama is just a regular yeshiva guy repeating all that he learned while in school. He writes up a nice summary, publishes it, and all of a sudden, once the mainstream media gets a hold of it, all his rabbeim are cutting him loose.

There, I've just done a horrible job summarizing what you said. Basically: Everyone believes this stuff, so it is silly that they go and deny it as soon as it gets out.

This is a bigger issue.

Where can I get a copy of R. Saadya Grama's book?

First of all, to Kermit: ribit is a very serious violation of the Torah and you should contain yourself. More seriously, I would have to see the book. No one can pretend to judge a discussion of such a serious Torah subject without having read it very carefully. That is a problem for Rav Kotler, who will have to prove that his title of rosh yeshiva is real rather than merely dynastic in order for a haskomah of his to mean anything. Let him write a serious treatise refuting the claims of Grama. The censors should understand that the cat is already out of the bag. It is futile in this case as it is in Rav Kamenetzky's Making of a Godol. We are out of the ghetto and we can't get back in. Rabbi Lamm, who jumps at the slightest peep from the goyim, sat on the White House lawn when the infamous Rabin-Clinton-Arafat meeting took place.